Victor Lugli — The Neuroscientist Investor Who Says AI Isn't Intelligent | Victor Lugli

[music] [music] Welcome to the show and I appreciate you coming on today, sir.  Uh this is one of the episodes of Pale Blue Nexus and uh we'll go with Victor for now and I welcome and thank you and please give yourself an introduction and uh let us know about your practice and your project and basically about yourself.  Oh, thank you.  Thank you.

First of all, thank you for uh this invitation and uh I know your uh channel, your podcast.  I know it quite uh well now and uh it's you know I know about you as well.  I don't know how many people uh uh know you but uh and your uh business history but it's quite impressive there.  So thank you very much for this invitation.

you are former IBM, you are former uh uh JP Morgan, you you invented uh uh ways of business and so this is quite quite a privilege for me.  So thank you very much for uh this talk between us uh uh today.  As I uh have already told you before this and you have already uh suggested as well this is a talk and so there's no media training involved in it and so I don't know what your uh specific uh uh questions will be and so this is quite uh spontaneous uh as a conversation and so it's it's very good uh for once it's very good to to have a a a good talk uh um recorded talk like this one.  So, thank you very much about myself as you asked.

My name is Victor Luli and and if you cannot uh pronounce uh Luli, that's that's okay as well.  So, it's Luli, but it's because it's Italian, you know.  I I'm uh uh I'm Italian and I'm talking to you uh today from S.  Paulo, Brazil, uh from one of our offices.

And uh as a as um uh uh my business activity I I am managing partner uh of Lulia the Lulia group that is an organization that operates uh globally within the scopes of investments consultancy and corporate or large large scale uh corporate training.  So this is this is me uh Johan.  Anything you want to know uh more about myself and my activities, I'm here to answer to your questions.

Yeah, you're you're a fascinating guy and um one of the things I'm I'm fascinated about is your research and your work in

sort of like the neuroscience.  Um, and we talked about that on our when we first met and I find that quite um, interesting.  You know, the mammal brain is just very complex and we don't know much about it.  Actually, we do know a lot about it.

I just don't think it's much into the forefront of popular sort of uh, knowledge.  Uh, what would you think about that?  Like is that a is that a true statement?  Yes, it's it's absolutely true.

Actually, I I like to mention it because there is a huge gap between what we know uh from a um you know in the in the scientific realm and scientific context uh academically speaking.  We know very much already about uh how our brain uh works and uh it's you know it it gained traction from the 70s actually because there was a a certain uh uh growth from the uh psychological uh studies and psychological point of view um technology as well.  Um so we actually we know uh a lot about how our brain works and um but you know the the the so the public let's call it this way the naive public um doesn't know about it you know does not know uh how they are they are I think the the most complex uh uh part of who they are works and uh so this is quite interesting and I like to mention it because you know we we we bridged that gap.  So as a company this I can say it uh with quite calmly you know quite uh specifically this is one of our biggest uh uh competitive advantages because we we we take something that is uh uh very very uh specific and we we create a link between our uh brain our mental dynamics scientifically ally speaking to a uh business practice actually and so we apply it in everything we do and everything we are.

But you asking me about my uh personal uh research and what how how I arrived here uh uh probably so about my history from an academic point of view.  I started studying uh uh politics sciences.  you know, I I I have uh my so Italian origin and Italian uh uh person from from you know I have always studied in Italy and so as a from as a kid and so the first approach uh Italy gives you to to knowledge is um and from this specific knowledge is from philosophy actually.  And so I found myself very very very uh um let's say in love maybe with the rhetorical aspects of knowledge and uh so from this on I I understood as you know during my uh growth my my personal uh intellectual also growth I I understood the relationship between uh um you know rhetoric and uh uh behavior etc.

and the use of it uh in a in a in the most practical way.  Let's I I remember I I was fascinated for example with uh uh the speech of uh Maneno agre who addressed a crowd was during a rebellion and he addressed the crow a crowd from a a hill in Rome and uh he managed to to to address them in a strategic way.  And so this is I since I remember this is this was one of my first uh you know visions about uh how was the relationship between uh the rhetorical knowledge and a practical uh uh application was.  And so this is just you know I I went to uh uh ancient history now uh uh ancient Rome now just for you to understand I have always pursued this you know I have always been in love with with uh this kind of of knowledge this type of knowledge and so uh my first because of this my first uh uh field of study was uh political sciences and began with a uh during a a huge series of personal events as well as as anyone uh I decided to study uh psychology as well and uh from psychology I went directly to neurossychology and cognitive uh neuroscience and so and maybe uh um many people do not know this But uh uh there are very many levels of uh neuroscientific uh knowledge and the the cognitive neuroscientific the cognitive uh neuroscience one is about the way is as hierarch hierarchically speaking is the most advanced one.

Mhm.  because it studies the way our brain creates our uh mind uh uh experience let's say and so I got fascinated by this this uh uh kind of study and um and when I started it I was already a an entrepreneur you know I was a already a businessman and uh but you know I got I think that period that period of time in my life was the one where when I maybe it's just arrogantly speaking but it was my my intelligence speak uh uh uh in in my life you know and so I felt like this because it was very stimulating for me and so I had the privilege to to to perceive this and to to make the most of it and um and so I I had uh uh privileged uh access uh to something that was my passion and and have always been since then.  And um so the research came uh from this from this period of time.  And I think the the most uh important line of research of that period that that I faced and I had access to uh was the the relation between the brain and consciousness.

Mhm.

And so I studied it uh uh with proper lines of uh research um from a scientific point of view.  So using a scientical approach, we we studied uh we studied uh um consciousness through uh specific fMRI uh uh protocols, MEG, MEG, MEG uh protocols etc.  So it was absolutely interesting and uh fascinating for me and from that I created uh uh our lines of uh research in the in in in through uh LUI group and neuromarketing uh etc.  everything we do uh from that point of view and so from this you know I I have a a third line of study that that came after was finance and so I had these these three uh fields uh covered let's say academically speaking and uh but you know from uh neuroscience I I applied it into neuromarketing and from this specifically and my personal uh business experience.

I I created a a a conceptual framework.  It's a I think it's the conceptual framework of everything uh we do at Lully Group that is named commercially speaking is named u neuroinductive practice.  And so this is this is somehow the the story and where where it comes from.  I think I wanted to explain this in a in a the simplest way possible uh because of you know the people uh I don't know how much uh they could uh uh understand the the neuroscientific principles but the way we we we apply it to business you know it's quite it's quite explicit and um so this this is this is uh what I do and um what where this knowledge uh comes from.

I I think it's was was it clear?  Was it understandable?

Yeah, absolutely.  And I think like my audience and myself would be interested in knowing how can we in your academic background and your research and and your experience dealing with founders and CEOs um and seeing how businesses play out.  What are some of the things that you would recommend or you would see like a lot of these business owners and CEOs don't apply on a regular basis that you would like them to apply?  Like are is there something that you can see in a CEO and says, "Okay, that guy's going to be successful.

He's going to have a successful company. " Is there a pattern there or is it largely based on an individual by-individual basis?  You know it's there is a pattern actually and uh if you ask me to identify it to make it explicit to your audience we have to start from the the let's say conceptually speaking we have in everything we do if we apply this uh concepts I I'm telling you about uh um to for example we apply to leadership we apply to sales we apply to negotiation etc etc.  We understand that we have elements that we begin from.

And so element for example uh in sales is your product you know and I think the the the most important ability we have in from from this specific point of view and in general in business is the ability to create a a link between and a a a proper and instrumental link between what we have as an element and the benefits that that element uh uh create.  Okay.  So uh um this this what does it mean that we have uh uh uh something that by itself is just uh a a material uh um you know element.  So something that we have also abstract one like in leadership.

So the the concept of uh what we do etc.  and to transform all this into a a a benefit.  But the benefit and now uh we have a a um you know an upgrade uh of what I'm telling you about the the the benefit must be appliable to our interlocutor that can be a business partner that can be uh uh you know um to whom you are addressing your uh elevator speak speech uh for example.  It's it's your pitch uh and um and or your customer, you know, it's it's the same principle there.

is a principle of influence but le let's say uh uh funnily speaking it's uh uh um business you know uh uh on steroids let's say because yes it's it's funny to say but to to tell you like this but you know you what what is the the main uh feature there that you understand your interlocutor and you apply what you have into his priorities.  So I I think the proper way to address it is to understand that uh the characteristic that defines successful uh business uh uh men or business people uh like the ones you mentioned before is this paradigm shift.  You know what you are and what you have does not uh uh is not that important.  But what you create from the and the link you you can create from what you have at your disposal and the beneficial aspect of it to your interlocutor is fundamental and it is the basis for anything we do from a business point of view and so I identify uh uh this importance let's say uh this successful uh pattern from specifically this.

So uh uh this ability and uh okay it can be uh taught it can be uh you know learned let's say but but um you know many people don't understand that this is the the the the main framework from which uh start anything you do in business and this is also what uh uh I do is daily on a daily basis you know the the ability I think if if you asked me if I have superpowers uh uh I would answer they are not super they are very very human uh uh human powers and that's it you know that that's these I'm telling you about now there's something that I've noticed uh call it just an instinct.  But today with the rise of AI, there is a lack of there's there's an explosion of product.  There's an explosion of content.  And the one thing that's lessened because of that is trust between customer and the vendor.

So there's a lack of trust.  There's a recession in trust happening right now and that's very interesting.  There's a lot of people creating different types of products.  They're great products, but there's a lack of trust happening and it it's one of the reasons that I produce this podcast and I've always done authentic sort of conversations like this.

Do you notice that too as well?  Uh like have you noticed people are a little bit more skeptical?  Customers are skeptical.  Cold emails are not as effective.

Certain certain things that you've done in the past may not work today is um you know I I completely agree with your point of view actually uh it can be uh directly linked to what uh uh I told you before.  uh I have just uh uh told you about uh the the necessity of the creation of this link between what you have at your disposal and the beneficial aspect uh uh to your interlocutor.  And so something like this demands a level of specificity that is huge, that is very very high.  And so this is why AI does not uh uh apply perfectly to the level of specificity you have to to gain in terms of dialogue in terms of everything you have and the way you propose it.

And and there's a reason why because AI first of all the the the eye part in AI is not a proper you know it's not intelligence okay it's a very effective way to manage and to uh uh elaborate data okay but it's not an intelligence the level of intelligence uh human uh uh humans have is absolutely uh superior to that.

Mhm.

Okay.  And so this is something there's a only who who understand uh human beings can understand this and so properly I mean so uh neuroscience tells you this there there's no way it it it cannot tell you this and so uh um the the level of specificity in the link between who you are and your interlocutor cannot not be determined by a system that works on average or averages.  Okay?  And that's that's exactly what AI uh does.

you know uh uh AI takes a huge amount of of data.  it par parameterize uh parameterizes it um and creates averages from it and so you have huge huge batches of data regarding a a topic regarding anything you want to and from the internet and create something that is based on a huge average of it this absolutely makes sense because what I see AI companies doing large language models and such.  It's like they're trying to put more data and specificity inside their models in order to mimic the the average level of intelligence that that goes up. But I don't think

it's the contrary.

Yeah, it is the contrary because it's things are always shifting and things are always moving. There's different things in the world that would shift. there's uh narratives that will change and it's hard to keep up with that. Yeah.

Yes.  Actually uh you know if you use uh uh artificial intelligence as a as a specific tool I mean you have a framework you have a a paradigm that you want to uh work upon through artificial intelligence.  Okay, let's see.  For example, in Formula 1, I talk uh to uh Formula 1 uh managers, for example, and uh the way they use artificial intelligence is through uh something they that they uh uh start from that is theirs that's you know that's that's specifically uh determined by them and use AI as a tool.

It's just an example, you know, because uh um Formula 1, for example, as as any business uh uh is determined by the level of of efficiency uh uh of what they do.  But if you if you have a company and you work on huge amounts of of data, you cannot expect uh uh but to to create uh averages.  And so the the the the moment you address to a customer or to you know a business partner etc is based on average.  And so this is this is quite uh uh dangerous from a specificity and uh uh uh efficiency point of view that business demands.

Yeah. Yeah. And absolutely I I think there is a a level of specificity that it's always changing and it's getting harder and harder to persuade and

persuasion is is is ahead of the curve when it comes to maybe they should come up with artificial persuasion. I don't think it can happen

you know uh uh just okay let's let's make an example about this specifically you start from a knowledge that is based for example marketing

okay you start from something that conceptually speaking is the uh uh unique selling proposal okay that is something that you and only you uh can deliver okay to the public to the to your market etc and you uh uh are aware of it and you use it etc strategically in your sales use etc etc the way you address uh your public now you have this and every founder today I know that uses something that that is merely informatic uh says we use artificial intelligence to do this this this this everyone one is telling me the same.  So how do I perceive your uniqueness?  How how do I perceive your unique selling proposal there?  Okay, so we have a proprietary uh uh way of addressing AI.

Okay, this is another uh uh way to address it and this is proper but you know uh uh um not not many uh do this uh these days and and it's also it's always the same speech now.

Yeah,

this is wrong.  This is specifically wrong.  No, we started from something that was uh specifically determined that is the the the the marketing uh um concept unique selling proposal etc.  And you come today uh with your pitch and then you you put your effort on etc and say something that every everybody is saying.

So this is just wrong you know.  So what do you have uh uh of uniquely uh determined and what is the effect that this uh uniqueness you have on what is the effect of this to you know your public to your market etc.  And and so this is this is the the the simple basis you know of business but we are losing it somehow because of the averages that we are creating.  So and more and more and this will uh become uh um more specific average.

So it's it seems to me like the business community, the founder community, the entrepreneurial community is undergoing a shift from hey I can make a web page.  No well now everyone can make a web page.  There's just a level of averess that has sort of up the bar. So now everybody needs to go above that and to the next level of

let's raise the bar right in terms of your unique selling proposition.

But I mean it has always been like this but now today you have an explosion of this but it has always been like this. Why? Because it's called uh uh competitiveness. Yeah.

You know uh uh you have to set the bar higher than your competitor.  But you have to understand what your competitor is and you have to understand as well.  You have to comp to understand what you have of you know your uniqueness and the paradigm shift I was telling you about uh the the beneficial aspect of it precisely for your interlocutor.  Interruptor can be for example an investor that you are talking to during a pitch or uh your large market etc etc.

So the more precise you have this clear in your mind, the more uh uh you can gain uh um anything you you desire from it, you know.  And uh so now the behavioral part the behavioral aspect of it is mainly the ability to determine to determine uh who your interrogator are and the way he moves what are his uh what his pre priorities are etc etc etc.  So just for you to understand this is quite specific and it must be so now just you know everybody is doing uh something they are not getting specific uh and uh of about what they're doing and they are not getting specific of the bene the benefits that they are promoting and they are not being specific on about the the their interlocator the definition of it.  So, we have more tools at your uh at our uh disposal, but you are you're not using the proper way, you know.

So, we have to understand this because you cannot be blind on it.  I I just had a image in my head.  I don't know if F1 is the is the uh analogy here, but maybe it's NASCAR, but that everybody has the same engine in the car.  It's just the driver now needs to know uh where to steer if it's a not a a straightforward track, but the track is open and everybody has the same power in a way with these models.

Yes, it it it does not apply to Formula 1 specifically, but yes, your example is correct, you know.  So what uh uh what makes you uh different you know and so this is the this is uh uh the starting point of of any business and uh so we are losing it somehow and I perceive it also uh uh I I you know I talk uh to many people from different uh uh perspectives and in different I have three operations uh um uh going on uh through Luri group.  And so we we have different ways to approach each one of them and uh each each uh demand uh of those.  And so uh we understand this from many points of view and from each one of these points of view we perceive the exact uh same thing.

So you have to go very very high in in terms of uh specificity uh um efficiency uh demand to understand that people are acting the proper way from this point of view and the the the formula one example is exactly this you know so how do you uh turn yourself to be uh uh relevant and they they use it they use their tools in the proper way. If I if you know just imagine if they didn't

Yeah.

it would lose everything. And so you have founders, you have entrepreneurs etc. that you know you you must understand that if you don't do it the proper way, you're just losing money and possibilities. That is the the main the main reason why you should be getting up in the morning. create possibilities, create uh uh things, etc. Please.

I think it's you're absolutely right.  It's like we have such great tools now and a lot of people don't know what to build.  They don't know where to steer.  They don't know what to focus on.

And I think it's a it's an interesting time that even myself, it's like I can build so many things.  I can open up my my dev tools and they're quite powerful and amazing.  It's just what do you want to build?  What do you what what do you want?

Where's the unique selling proposition?  Where's the value that's create being created?  Where's the benefits that are being created?  And I guess you're seeing this on a larger level.

But the one uh thing I'm also interested in is there are organizations that are a lot slower to move.  There are huge organizations that are possibly being disrupted. Um, and acquisitions are happening quite fast because big organizations are seeing smaller organizations meet that product market fit

quite quickly and they're just let let's bring you in house type of thing, right? Like are you seeing a lot of that?

Yes. uh um you know about speed. Yes, everything is moving uh quite faster and you have uh finance that is uh moving quite fast as well and um you have more access nowadays and uh you you have you know when you start to operate uh bigger and bigger you start to operate globally.

Mhm. And so you have a global scope and in everything you do. It's not international anymore. You know, you have a a global scope. We we we work in with uh 28 countries uh today. And so we have different cultures. We have uh different ways of approaching things etc. And you know it's it's it's the way uh things are moving now. And so um you you must be more efficient.

So you must be more competitive in anything you do and you must use your tools in the most proper uh way possible you know that's just it you know so you have bigger companies etc.  Yes, you have damn uh uh fagositating uh eating uh um but but it has always been like this.  But now we have more access and more visibility uh to these uh dynamic to these uh dynamics.  And uh also just for you to understand a a perspective of ours and how do we manage it and again it starts from uh neuroscience as well.

No, because one of uh the assumptions let's say the premises uh that we have from a neuroscientific uh uh point of view uh is conceptually speaking is uh each uh each brain works the same way.  So we do not consider uh the person from as culturally determined but biologically determined.  And so just just uh um we we we start from the origins of behavior of anyone uh we are uh talking to.  And so this is a huge advant advantage also scientifically speaking uh is a huge advantage uh for our businesses and uh for each and every uh uh dynamic uh we operate in and we create in a in a in this scale let's say the global scale as well.

So this is a huge advantage.  And so if I uh should if I could evaluate our competitiveness, our competitive advantage inside this scale say it's working.  You know, for this uh specific point of view, I've heard and with the people I'm talking to, AI is one technology.  There are other technologies that AI will enable but they are as I guess transforming as AI.

You you talk about robotics.  You talk about quantum and quantum computing.  These are all coming around at the same time.  Has there ever been a time like this in history?

Like is this

what what is the next 10 years going to look like? And which of those technologies are you excited about?

Uh uh you know Johan uh we have this uh I don't want to to say uh uh it is an illusion let's say but let's remember that uh men humankind started to fly and just a few years later he went to the moon.  It's it's it's it's not that far, you know.  It's we're talking about uh uh not that many years.  Uh uh so things have always moved very very fast in in everything uh uh we made for just for you uh uh to to understand my point of view.

you had uh illuminism that gave us access to the human being as biologically determined and so from from it's not uh uh far from from uh where we are now.  So just imagine what what it uh represented from illuminism to uh uh our present day.  And so this is a huge explosion of knowledge from that because of you know religion and the divine access to human beings etc.  So before that we couldn't access uh to human beings as as biologically determined.

It's just an example.  So uh uh from that period of time to today we have a uh we are talking about neuromarketing now between us you know we are talking about the the the specificity of [snorts] uh brain activity and so from this specifically from this you ask me about uh the future and maybe priorities from a a business point of view you know you have all the the the biological uh advances.  Okay.  But uh you know just imagine what uh uh can represent the union between everything we know from a neuroscientific point of view and robotics and everything is informatic.

So you know uh the first uh uh the first things uh come to my mind is BMI so brain machine interface.  Okay.  So this is something we have uh uh invested in uh since its its inception since its beginning and we are uh uh quite pioneers in that just you know so this is something I believe in uh very very much and I am actually I am available to to put my money in it you know like like I have already uh done and been doing uh uh since you know it's years already and so and so just imagine what uh you know what future will become you know putting together in the same uh batch biological uh advancement uh AI and brain machine interfaces.  So just just imagine that what can become for you know uh military u efficiency in in business, efficiency in knowledge etc etc.

So access to knowledge.  So we we will have an exponential uh growth uh from this point of view also. This is a a huge advancement in um cognition,

right?  Okay.  And uh from many points of view and also the therapeutic uh uh uh of it, you know, the therapeutical approach of it, what can become?  So what you're saying is that LLMs by themselves and is is is not the way but the com combination between the human brain and this is what's going to cause an exponential growth in things and and how far do you see that?

Like I already carry my smartphone.  Uh people they're tied to their smartphone.  Um, and but you're saying there's a link there that it can be a lot faster and more efficient with a human uh brain machine interface.  How how and you're investing into it.

So, how tight do you see that integration being and what are your thoughts on that and predictions about that?

Okay.  uh um how tight 100%.  Just imagine I I think if if I have to to you are asking me something that is very difficult to determine of course so uh uh we don't have our we can imagine how things will be okay and um if you know asking me to imagine it I think uh every one of us will have an interface applied to our brains okay because it will be the the the new normal the new regular uh way of uh living just like our smartphone, you know, because you will reach a level from from uh example from uh um you know operational point of view, from a u medical point of view etc etc.  You will have the the the the most advanced piece of matter we know about in the universe that is our brain applied to the most advanced technology we have at your at our disposal.

Now there is AI and machine learning uh uh context of of uh uh operating etc.  And so we have the union of this.  I think in this union resides our future from any point of view diagnosis uh um you know oper anything is operation because we we have to understand that uh um you have millions of years of evolution that guided us and make us be what we are.  And we have uh uh our nervous systems that are the most advanced uh part of of what we are and our brain is uh the most advanced part of a new nervous system.

Okay.  And so this is uh I I think it's inevitable to see the union of of this all and the the the you know the the growth of our cognitive ability because of it and as as anything that comes to us at at our disposal you have uh uh you have to choose how let's say choose how to use it.  Okay.  if use it as a tool in order to to improve what you are and what you do etc.

just like normal regular AI now.  And the the the most smart the smartest uh way to to to use it just like it was and it is the internet and everything we have.  I can use YouTube to see something very very use as as as your podcast for example.  I can choose to see it or I can choose uh uh not to to you know I don't mean no lack of disrespect about it but I can see so I can choose to see uh a duck you know uh uh you know just circling around you know a pot you know you can choose it let's say you can choose it but today I choose to uh uh watch something very useful and of the highest level possible like your podcast and specifically our interview of course.

[laughter] Is there a downside to human machine interaction?  Yes.  Yes.  Of course.

as any uh technology uh the manipulative side of it you know because that that's where uh regulation reside I see okay and so just like the internet as I told you if if you you know you if you use these tools or everything we have at at our disposal proposal in a manipulative way it becomes negative for humankind.  Okay.  But so it's it's something ethical here that we have to to address.  I can use it just like neuroscience just like everything we have at our disposal.

You can uh use it in a destructive way and you can use it in a constructive way.  Okay. So everything we are and so if if you apply greed to this for example it depends greed for money

it's one thing greed for knowledge let's let's uh uh let's accept it you know and uh just it's not it's not called greed but just for you to understand uh uh the the the hunger for uh beautiful things the hunger for uh um you know possibilities etc knowledge etc. And so there are uh uh downsizes of it and this is a huge one for example

uh it's a it's like it seems like this may be the conversation that happens in the next 5 to 10 years. It's like

where does this go? And it's going to play out you know day by day and and month by month and quarter by quarter. Uh we are still very uh to your point very greed driven very profit driven which is a good thing. Um however we do need to sort of balance that out with the ethical side of things and uh

yes yes is anything uh from my point of view is is anything Johan.  So you have uh Europe now nowadays uh there are willing to that is Europe as a government is willing to regulate what we do.  you have Australia that is uh preventing uh the the the youngest to access for example uh social media et and so you have different realities uh nowadays or in terms of how you uh uh approach these new uh frontiers you know and um so it's it's it's the way things go.  Now how do I do there?

There is one premise here that is very very important and that is um you know ethically speaking uh we have human beings that are quite fragile from a cognitive point of view.  Okay.  And so uh we have extreme difficulties between our present action and our long-term goals.  This is one of the fundamentals, one of the premises we have at our disposal.

For example, uh in in behavioral economics, the reason why behavioral economics are very important nowadays, extremely important.  So and this is the basis of of what we do uh as well and basis of successes uh u you have to be uh very clear about it.  You have to uh reach a certain level of clarity between your present action and your long-term uh goal.  And so this is this requires an enormous effort from a cognitive point of view, you know.

And so um yes we are facing this but with a with um you know with quite a a fragile human being there that is being approached by these technologies.  So this is this is something to to look at very very uh in in a robust act ethic ethical uh uh um approach.  You know, I we've already hit 50 minutes and it's fascinating that it time went that fast, but um I think I love your web page. It's it's the it's a brain and it's gold

and it's it's just

um Thank you very much for it.

Yeah, it it really shows what you feel about the human brain and how important it is. And that's the one takeaway I would I I want to take from this interview for myself is that there is so much power there in our brain. It's a golden device and it's to be cherished and it's to be used uh there is a lot of potential in it, right? And I think that's

Yeah. Where can we keep up with you, Victor? And uh where can we know more about uh what you're up to?

You know, just first step would be ask me just just everything is is open.  uh you know we are expanding a lot and um we are working with very strictly with uh the Middle East specifically we are embracing for example vision 2030 in Saudi Arabia so we are making you are making it we are making it ours and um so it's everything we do is long-termed and um from also from a a legacy point of view.  So it's very important for us to understand uh uh that everything we do means legacy as well because of the origin of our capital.  This family capital because of uh uh you know the scientific approach of what we do and actually this is we are moving uh fast.

We are always uh willing to uh follow uh the the the the all the possibilities that that we have at our uh disposal from uh technologies uh from you know many points of view from finance etc point of view and so and also we have many many uh possibilities nowadays with uh gene therapy for therapy for example and uh from, you know, the biological aspects of uh uh what we are and [snorts] um you know everything that that uh biology itself can offer us and uh something that that we are uh approaching uh these days is uh a company it it it can be public.  because since you asked me about it, it's EVIS the the name of the company and we are already discussing we are very very impressed by what they are achieving they they you know it's it's it's interesting because we are talking about uh uh RNA and so we have their proprietary platform form to load ex extracellular vesicles the are the the natural messengers of the bay of the of our bodies and they are able to load these extracellular vesicles with RNAs which is a uh something extremely difficult that that they managed to to achieve and this is also uh something that I uh I am following in very very uh strictly and very very uh with proximity, you know, because we think this is this is something that that has a an immense and very very um potential future there.  So this is only an example of course but it's a valid one and also it it reveals from a financial and investment point of view what means all that legacy and long-term vision that we have.  It's not only real estate for example real estate vision 2030 is it is something that it's immense as an approach and it's it's for long term because of the size of it.

Okay.  And uh but from relationship between technology and AI and brains etc.  as we discussed before we have BMI we have brain machine interfaces and also why not from a specifically uh determined biological approach to life so biotechnology etc.  we have this kind of of examples.

So from the projects to brains to uh uh biology itself etc.  And the example is is is evis that we are uh uh approaching right now.  So this is quite a a interesting uh period of of our uh time for us I mean for our company.  Yeah.

I I bet it's it's every every investor and capital allocator is just like very excited right now. I think like they they see a potential to

shape the future which is what this podcast discusses as well. I wanted to say thank you Victor for coming on the show. It's been quite fascinating and this will be clipped up and delivered to the my mass audiences and it across all channels and I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time today uh and coming on and explaining

you know I I loved the possibility and the perspective of uh this interview since I knew you for the first time. Well, it's it's uh for me it's it was very interesting. You delivered uh absolutely that interest that I that I had perceived from the first time talking to you and with you and uh so it was a privilege for me not just you know not because uh many people will will see it etc. Not just that you know but because I I found it very interesting and I thank you for that. Absolutely. So, it was my uh privilege for it.

Thank you so much for saying that.